1
00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:06,900
Interview with Helmut Dietrich
12/30/2007 in Berlin

2
00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:09,900
My name is Helmut Dietrich

3
00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:15,900
I'm working to the refugee and migrations politic for many years

4
00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,900
In the beginning especially at the German-Polish border

5
00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:26,900
For the last years, I live in North African countries.

6
00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:32,900
Could you outline the refugee and migration politic of the EU?

7
00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:40,900
What's happening there? What are the interests of the EU?

8
00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,900
cheap manpower

9
00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:53,900
There is an interest on illegalized manpower
since several centuries.

10
00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,900
The EU is a fabric that grows.

11
00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:11,900
It depends on expansion to persist economical and political.

12
00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:16,900
It depends on increasing opening to the outer world

13
00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:19,900
accompanied by increasing demarcation.

14
00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,900
The borders get shifted to east.

15
00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:30,900
In the south, the borders are fix at the moment.

16
00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:39,900
When the borders disappear, when they get porous

17
00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,900
The possibilities of reproduction, the wages, 

18
00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,900
the self-confidence of the people are increasing.

19
00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:52,900
It gets possible that the living conditions are equalising.

20
00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,900
The keeping of borders or the creation of new borders
means 

21
00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:01,900
that the inequity gets consolidated.

22
00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:05,900
outboard and inboard.

23
00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:12,900
The graduation of hierarchy and debasement

24
00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:17,900
of the living-conditions reflect itself inboard.

25
00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:26,900
Are there studies, can you name numbers 

26
00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:32,900
which economic value so-called illegal immigrants have?

27
00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:44,900
As a rule of thumb: The so-called "econonic miracle" of the 60s

28
00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:49,900
is based on the so-called guest-worker-migration.

29
00:02:51,000 --> 00:03:00,900
On the south european migrants, who came into the factories back then.

30
00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:06,900
And similar another rule of thumb you could say:

31
00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:13,900
The economic reconstruction in the European Union

32
00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:20,900
leaving behind the old industries and the new service-sectors

33
00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:31,900
is only possible with the help of the illegalized.

34
00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:36,900
This applies worldwide. This applies for North America, 

35
00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:41,900
for Australia, the arabic gulf states,

36
00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:48,900
for Singapore, for Warsaw. In the centres of this boom

37
00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:56,900
the illegalized are planned in tightly at present.

38
00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:04,900
A complete legalisation would change the conditions radical to the positive,

39
00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:08,900
would lead to an equalization of the living-conditions.

40
00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:16,900
The only definition of complete legalisation is an opening of all borders.

41
00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,900
The deadly consequences

42
00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:28,900
What we discuss here as EU refugee-politic

43
00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:33,900
is for many people a death sentence.

44
00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,900
Can you say something about that?

45
00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,900
Until 1992 there was no visa-requirement for people from North Africa.

46
00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,900
Until 1992 they could come over the Mediterranean Sea 

47
00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:47,900
with simple boats or big ships.

48
00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:54,900
The problem was that they couldn't get a pass from their origin country.

49
00:04:55,000 --> 00:05:08,900
But here in Europe they got a legal status very quick.

50
00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:23,900
With the introduction of the visa-requirement, with the Schengen-politic 1992

51
00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:29,900
the european countries introduced parallel

52
00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:33,900
the visa-requirement for north african people.

53
00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:46,900
This spacial separation meant to the people which came over the Mediterranean Sea

54
00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:54,900
not only an illegalisation, 

55
00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:01,900
but they had to come by small boats that are not seagoing.

56
00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:07,900
They die in the sea.

57
00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:15,900
The spanish government said that 6000 people

58
00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:25,900
were dying on their way to the Canaries in 2006.

59
00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:37,900
If we project that on the time until 1992 we have to speak about

60
00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:45,900
the biggest mass grave in postwar Europe.

61
00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:51,900
In the Mediterranean Sea, around Gibraltar, the Canaries, and Sicily.

62
00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,900
Bulkheading

63
00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:06,900
A part of the strategy of the EU politic

64
00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:08,900
is the integration of origin and transit countries.

65
00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:13,900
What is happening there?

66
00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:18,900
The goal is that the authorities, police but also the people

67
00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:23,900
are supposed to rethink.

68
00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:29,900
and see migrants, refugees from other african countries as a threat.

69
00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:40,800
There is for historical traditions a latent racism in North Africa

70
00:07:40,900 --> 00:07:48,900
against people from South Africa.

71
00:07:57,900 --> 00:08:04,800
With the integration of the transit countries in the bulkheading politic

72
00:08:04,900 --> 00:08:07,800
it threatens to switch to open racism.

73
00:08:07,900 --> 00:08:14,800
This is a very volatile chapter.

74
00:08:14,900 --> 00:08:18,800
It is not only an integration of the north african countries

75
00:08:18,900 --> 00:08:28,900
but it is a form of export of frictions, of war risk.

76
00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:37,900
The EU can represent itself inbound as civilized, peaceful, stable

77
00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:46,900
and exports dangers, a thinking of bulkheading.

78
00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:54,900
On the back of the people. On the back of the refugees from the south.

79
00:08:55,000 --> 00:09:03,900
You have to say that the so-called development aid to the african countries

80
00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:14,900
is fallen behind the armament exports.

81
00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:20,900
The exports of frictions, armament

82
00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:27,900
Development politic and neighborhood politic and association agreements

83
00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:38,900
make a nicer picture but in reality there are developing

84
00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,900
war regions, hunger regions in Central Africa.

85
00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:49,900
Maybe the migration and refugees politic serves as a way

86
00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:57,900
to cut the African continent from the developments.

87
00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,900
Open the borders

88
00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:08,900
What would happen if the borders were opened right away?

89
00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:14,900
If you look at the immigration from north african countries,

90
00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:20,900
it is a gradual increasing, since the 60's until today.

91
00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:32,900
There is no cut in 1992, there is no crash in the developing of the migration.

92
00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:40,900
You can be sure that an opening of the borders would mean ongoing migration.

93
00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:44,900
It was similar at the eastward enlargement.

94
00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,900
Some have spread fear and said

95
00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:53,900
there will come hundreds of thousands or even millions.

96
00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,900
It was similar at the enlargement to Spain.

97
00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,900
These threat scenarios are unfortunately part of Schengen, 

98
00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:05,900
the free travelling of the EU citizens

99
00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:15,900
and we have to set out everything to disintegrate the link between

100
00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:20,900
free travelling inbound and bulkheading outbound.

101
00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:29,900
Making free travelling possible for all, like we can.

102
00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:34,900
Solidarity and repression in transit countries.

103
00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:40,900
Do you know of solidarity in transit countries for the refugees?

104
00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:45,900
Are there structures who help and want to change

105
00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:50,900
the awareness of the own population?

106
00:11:52,000 --> 00:12:01,900
In Marocco are many refugee groups, solidarity groups, self-organization

107
00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:08,900
students, other solidary groups, relatives of drowned people

108
00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:18,900
They are able to document very good when a raid happens

109
00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:24,900
when deportations happen, when people are drowned.

110
00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:32,900
And this documentation is spread until Europe using email-lists.

111
00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:42,900
So you can know what's happening and you can get in contact directly.

112
00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:51,900
This applies for Marocco, other countries have less or nothing

113
00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,900
because that are partly very repressive countries

114
00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:15,900
where imprisonment, disappearance, camps are happening day by day.

115
00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,900
When you think from the european perspective, 

116
00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:25,900
with which groups you could get in contact?

117
00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:34,900
You have to consider at first that that are very repressive structures.

118
00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:41,900
Young people get imprisoned, disappear, they don't know why themselves.

119
00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:54,900
They get tortured sometimes, interrogated about anti terrorism, Iraq war, ...

120
00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:03,900
In this field incurs the immigration-countering.

121
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:12,900
There are processes every week, where young people get convicted

122
00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:16,900
because they wanted to leave the country "illegal".

123
00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:22,900
They get convicted from half a year to 2 years.

124
00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:27,900
The people who organized it even longer.

125
00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,900
Every week.

126
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,900
Living together in another world

127
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:43,900
We have to work directly with the people together

128
00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:49,900
and experience the links to the south consciously and to live.

129
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:56,900
start discussions how we wanna live together in another world

130
00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:07,900
Apart from the petroleum fences, control technologies and bulkheading.

131
00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:12,900
We have start a dialogue from below.

132
00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:18,900
We have to try to build up perspectives together with the south.

133
00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:24,900
There lies the future. There are lying 

134
00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:29,900
the possibilities to do something about the economic disparities.

135
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:34,900
Work together to develop perspectives against the wars,

136
00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:43,900
to invent new things for social co-existence across the borders.

137
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,900
Thank you.

138
00:15:52,000 --> 00:16:01,900
Further informations: